L ast year Brian of MGoBlog ranted to Alabama fans about the evils of culling college football players. In his own words, “The NCAA limit is there because the NCAA would like you to not kick kids off the f***ing team, but for various reasons the rule’s pretty easy to skate around.”
Where is the outrage when Michigan’s coach runs players off the team? According to College Football Talk Rich Rodriguez said, “Stay tuned. There’s a couple guys I’m going to sit with here. Just guys that maybe if they’re not doing all their responsibilities and doing what they need to do to be part of our football program may not be back. I hope that’s not too many.â€
I went to Brian’s blog expecting to see outrage. Instead all I saw was this post: “Um… a couple? Obviously Grady is hanging by a frayed thread and will have to plead for his place, but I’m hoping a couple is just PR.”
Way to stand up for the poor exploited student-athletes who went to Michigan expecting to have a scholarship for four years, and now the coach is running them off. Remember when Cook wrote this? “Alabama has every incentive to dump guys. They flat out have to. If a kid is struggling with his academic eligibility how motivated will Alabama be to help him? If a player commits a petty offense how eager will Alabama be to boot him? If Nick Saban knows that by August he has to say goodbye to six kids and it’s July and he’s only got four down, then what?
“I’ll tell you what: someone gets it right in the ass.”
What about all these Wolverine players getting it in the ass?
WHY OVERSIGN? I ll tell ya, its so if YOUR WRONG about any ONE player it doesnt matter… Ya get it???
Sure you do!
Harvey Birdman –
You place a ton of weight on why the Saban players were RS’d, booted, etc. You therefore argue that IF the reasons were pure, then there’s nothing wrong with signing.
Fine.
Would not not agree that the practice of oversigning COMPELS the result, though? Even for innocent reasons? Would you also agree that the practice of oversigning NECESSARILY, even if for a short period of time, creates an incentive for a coach to find a way to lose players (it has to, right? I mean, if the team doesn’t shed players Saban’s in trouble, right?).
So you are apparently against the PRESUMPTION that oversigning causes a coach to push a kid out the door, based on the fact that the same thing could happen for totally innocent reasons, right?
But you do see how oversigning CAN cause a coach to push a kid out the door… and you do see that oversigning requires a coach to either luck into some medical redshirts/drop outs/armed robberies OR to do something sketchy… and you’re just more comfortable than others, apparently, that a coach that practices massive oversigning will always fall into the former category… or you’re willing to give Coach Saban the benefit of the doubt, though you admit that you don’t know exactly what happens behind closed doors.
But certainly, CERTAINLY you can understand why (given the unaligned incentives that oversigning creates) why others may fairly NOT give Saban that benefit of the doubt, right?
So you admit then that you have no basis for making an informed comment on the Michigan program, one way or another. Okay, at least we’re getting somewhere.
So why not limit the discussion specifically to the heart of the matter, which is whether MGoBlog’s indictments against Saban have merit?
And not whether Michigan, which MGoBlog just happens to support, is kicking football players off the team for football-related reasons. Uh, because it is not the case. It is not even close.
Obviously, should be “there’s nothing wrong with oversigning” and “Would you not agree that…”
ThWard -
Let me first say that I appreciate the tone you bring to the discussion.
I agree that oversigning can create some pretty awkward (to say the least) situations between a player and coach. Especially a player that isn’t seeing the field regularly. The next thing the player knows, some hotshot DB recruit is coming in and the coach calls you in to tell you good luck and godspeed.
My argument is about appearances. Yeah, it might be easy to assume that Saban is signing these recruits left and right only to have some assistant strength coach tell the kid being replaced to hit the road. But, all indications are that these kids are leaving football altogether because of medical reasons, or something closely related. Most if not all of those were “nagging” type injuries that really made it difficult for the kid to contribute. That kid is still going to get a four year degree and a scholarship to boot. Sketchy? I guess we’ll have to disagree about that, but I’ll tell you that Saban waited a good while before even putting Tyrone “The leg injury from hell” Prothro on the medical scholarship, so it’s not something he jumps at doing.
Still, my point remains the same. Brian was assuming a LOT of things (as did some other bloggers) to say that the practice of oversigning was a “sketchy” practice.
I think the tenor of Cap’s post above was that we should feel free to cast the same assumptions Rich Rod’s way now that he is kicking players out.
Agree or disagree, that is how I see it.
But you shouldn’t. Because the player in question, who has not even been let go, despite all the allegations, is not being kicked to make room for an uber-frosh. He may be booted because he had a .231 BAC in Wyoming and hasn’t shown up for his probation hearings.
Capstone is arguing that giving someone the boot because they are unable to live within the rules of the team (and society) is somehow comparable to over-recruiting. No.
Ven
I would have no problem agreeing with you excpet that Rod’s quote indicated (in no uncertain terms) that other players could most definitely get the boot. Not just you DUI kid.
Harvey Birdman –
I understand your point. But again – Brian Cook’s argument was never that “under no circumstances, can a coach kick a player off of the team.” Or hell, let’s tone down the word “kick” and use “encourage to leave.” The example the original post cites is a kid who has violated probation (!!!). I refuse to believe that the author of the OP really believes that Cook suggests that under no circumstances can a kid who violates probation (!!!) be kicked off the team.
As to the quote that others might be in trouble – I fail to see what’s unique about it. I’m being honest, if one was so inclined, couldn’t you find an example of EVERY DI coach talking like that? Many coaches try to light a fire under their players asses if they’re failing in the grades department.
Again – in my view, it simply comes down to incentives. Coach Rod benefits in no way in losing Grady, or any other kid. He has no incentive for them to leave, and is actually hurt if they do. But if a kid can’t cut the academics at UM OR violates probation (and thus pisses on his second chance), what can you do but apply your standards, right?
Again, perhaps every kid that is med-shirted or asked to leave a program the same year that program oversigns X number of players is a completely innocent case (Harvey, you’ve obviously pointed out a few examples). But I don’t see how we can’t agree that the practice of unaligning a coach’s and players’ incentives for all kids to stay is probably a bad practice.
Big difference between A) purposefully oversigning and putting yourself in a position where players must be booted, period, regardless of whether that number of players actually committed infractions that warranted dismissal from the team, and B) removing players who are not meeting their requirements.
You have a very poor argument here.
But I don’t see how we can’t agree that the practice of unaligning a coach’s and players’ incentives for all kids to stay is probably a bad practice.
APR means a coach can’t kick kids off the team without consequences. Retention is part of the APR calculation.
Pat -
No players were “booted” from the team to make room for anyone. Check the link I posted somewhere above for confirmation of that (except of course, for our FELONS, but I digress).
ThWard –
I can see where you’re coming from on the incentives angle. I would disagree that coaches have an incentive to keep every player on the team that he can from year to year. Many times, a coach has a bigger incentive to keep team cohesion by ridding the team of some of its “dead weight” (either in terms of off-field issues, academics, or troublemaking amongst teammates). A good example of this is with former LB Prince Hall. He could not keep his head on straight for violating team rules, and has missed the last two spring practices due to suspensions. Saban was given no incentive to keep this kid around, but rather had an incentive to boot him to help keep the team playing as a unit. The same thinking really applies to these kids who, en masse, were given medical schollys. This particular group of players had injuries that kept them from helping the team on the field. No doubt, these were all nagging injuries that any coach (much less Saban) would have noticed before the end of the year. It is not at all unlikely that Saban kept a list of players whom, in his studied opinion, had little chance of ever overcoming these injuries and producing for the team. To compensate for this, Saban no doubt knew that he would need to bring in a few more recruits to help fill those spaces. Of course, it is inevitable that some of those recruits will fail to qualify for one reason or another, which further reduces the number of scholarships needed. Other recruits can enroll early and back date, which also helps numbers. Ultimately, Saban had an incentive to oversign to make sure he had enough talent to help this team win.
I find it hard to believe that Coach Saban, the work horse that he is, who is prepared for every situation when it comes to game-planning, would rely on luck to make sure he could make scholarship numbers. I find it much easier to believe that Saban knew which players would not be able to play because of nagging injuries, and planned accordingly.
Again, this is just my view. I know it’s not for everyone.
Yeah, you know this is the extreme of beating a dead horse! In 3 topics this week there have been about 125 posts. Most of them from Michigan posters repeatimg the same shit over and over again, and the majority of those including very offensive language, inuendos and derogatory remarks. On all three topics I have posted long and for the most part polite explanations of the Bama oversigning practice. But it is going in one ear and out the other! Now I’m fed up with this bullshit! No more mr. nice guy! You fucking midwestern pig farmers need to get your asses back home! You think we’re ignorant? You yahoos are the original rednecked stump jumpers that left the civilized New England States to fend for scraps in the forests! You far surpass any ignorant clod hopper from Alabama, and that includes East Alabama too! What we do here at the University of Alabama is none of your fucking business as long as it is within the NZAA guidelines. Fuckheads, I don’t think you see the NZAA sniffing our asses over over-signing! Mind your own fucking business! Yeah I know that’s impossible for you Yankee and West Coast Dudley Do Right Bastards. You motherfuckers think you have to police the whole fucking world with your fucking special interest group bullshit. Doesn’t matter how wrong you might be, or how many more people it may harm on the opposite side relative to number harmed on the original side. What a bunch of sad, ignorant Bastards you are. The special interest groups minding everybody elses business but their own are turning this country into a fucking police state. I don’t need your fucking help, and neither does the U of A. So drag your sorry asses back up there to that universe sized shithole you’ve made and leave us the fuck alone, tards!!! Sorry Cappy. Just had to do it! RAMMER JAMMER YELLOW HAMMER! ROLL TIDE ROLL!