Where is the outrage over at MGoBlog?

L ast year Brian of MGoBlog ranted to Alabama fans about the evils of culling college football players. In his own words, “The NCAA limit is there because the NCAA would like you to not kick kids off the f***ing team, but for various reasons the rule’s pretty easy to skate around.”

Where is the outrage when Michigan’s coach runs players off the team? According to College Football Talk Rich Rodriguez said, “Stay tuned. There’s a couple guys I’m going to sit with here. Just guys that maybe if they’re not doing all their responsibilities and doing what they need to do to be part of our football program may not be back. I hope that’s not too many.”

I went to Brian’s blog expecting to see outrage. Instead all I saw was this post: “Um… a couple? Obviously Grady is hanging by a frayed thread and will have to plead for his place, but I’m hoping a couple is just PR.”

Way to stand up for the poor exploited student-athletes who went to Michigan expecting to have a scholarship for four years, and now the coach is running them off. Remember when Cook wrote this? “Alabama has every incentive to dump guys. They flat out have to. If a kid is struggling with his academic eligibility how motivated will Alabama be to help him? If a player commits a petty offense how eager will Alabama be to boot him? If Nick Saban knows that by August he has to say goodbye to six kids and it’s July and he’s only got four down, then what?

“I’ll tell you what: someone gets it right in the ass.”

What about all these Wolverine players getting it in the ass?

63 Responses to “Where is the outrage over at MGoBlog?” Subscribe

  1. E.G White May 18, 2009 at 4:58 pm #

    Hey there ‘aint a damn thing of value free in this world. Ditto guaranteed. A football scholly’s worth over $100,000. Nobody’s recruited to be a 3rd stringer. Everyone is expected to contribute to the success of a multi multi million dollar business. And to contribute in not just physical ability, but also in behavior, team moral and NCAA required grades the lack of which could cost the school more than just his scholly. A top athlete is capable of playing more than one position in the situation where he may need too, to retain his scholly. If an athlete cannot meet these 5 tests, then he needs to go away. It’s that simple. Why should a student athlete be treated any different than my employer would treat me? Everybody knows the NCAA is bulls–t. They’re more interested in parity and $ than in fair treatment of student athletes. They never in hell limited schollys in the name of fair treatment. If a student athlete can’t contribute then fire his ass! IMO!

  2. Pluto May 18, 2009 at 6:51 pm #

    Yeah – I hear you guy. It’s this “entitlement mentality” that is causing the problems. Too many people think that there is no cost to a “free lunch”.

  3. Tim May 18, 2009 at 8:38 pm #

    Uh, Michigan is well under scholarship limits for 2009. These situations are not even related, much less the same.

    What in the fuck are you talking about?

  4. capstonereport May 18, 2009 at 8:53 pm #

    Gotta love that class from Michigan fans!

    What the FUCK I’m talking about is how these poor innocent players who came to Michigan to get an education are being run off from the school.

    Scholarship numbers don’t matter! It is the treatment of these poor oppressed players who are being or might be booted from the team! Or did that classy Rich Rodriguez mean something else when he hinted at kicking people off his team?

    Won’t somebody please think of the players???

  5. Tim May 18, 2009 at 10:00 pm #

    Wow, somebody totally didn’t get the point of the mgoblog post.

  6. Tim May 18, 2009 at 10:05 pm #

    Like, I honestly can’t tell if you’re trying to be inflammatory regardless of the facts, or if you honestly just don’t get it.

  7. capstonereport May 18, 2009 at 10:15 pm #

    The core of his point was that players were being hurt. Right? Over-signing is bad because players get hurt. Right? They get run off when they otherwise might like to get a degree from going to college. Right?

    My point is players are being hurt because they wanted to attend U of M and get an education—hence, it is equally bad to run off players who aren’t pulling their weight because in the end, players don’t get to finish their education where they started on scholarship.

    My ultimate point is that Cook’s point was based on conjecture that players might hypothetically get hurt by over-signing; hence, why I went in search of outrage that players might hypothetically get hurt by being run off from Michigan.

    In other words, I think Brian was full of shit in his original post because he doesn’t give a damn about student-athletes. He just wanted to bitch about over-signing because it benefited SEC schools and not Big 10 schools. How can I say this? He isn’t upset by Rodriguez possibly kicking players off the team for no other reason that he doesn’t think they are working hard enough.

  8. Oskie May 18, 2009 at 10:33 pm #

    Amazingly I’m in agreement with you on this, CR.

  9. E.G White May 19, 2009 at 5:31 am #

    Well I can agree with you on bashing MGoBlog because they appear to be two faced. They can’t bash the SEC for over signing which can make it necesary to ‘fire’ some student athletes who aren’t contributing, to make room for the ones you need; and then turn around and support Rich Rod who may be doing the same thing at Michigan. However, there may be more to it than that. If it’s true that Michigan is under scholly limits then you have a completely different situation. You can’t compare ‘firing’ an athlete because you’ve oversigned to ‘firing’ one who’s become a ball and chain for the team, especially when there are still schollys left. However, if this argument is in reference to the evils of oversigning in general that’s one thing. But if it’s related specifically to Alabama then it’s something else entirely. CNS is a professional manager. He has his scholly plan under control. He knows who’s going to contribute and who’s not, who’s going to gray shirt, who’s going need prep school, who’s thinking of transferring, who can’t follow the rules, who is a moral problem for the team and who has problems with the law. As of this date I know of no student athlete who CNS has ‘fired’ without cause. Last year he cleaned house to get rid of Shula’s troublemaker’s and you saw the results – we almost won a NC. If Rich Rod is doing the same thing then I applaud him for it. There is a legitimate excuse for oversigning in todays multi million dollar college football business. When you know your team and who’s going to make it and who’s not, you cannot afford to lose an athlete that you direly need simply because ‘at the moment’ there are no scholly’s available. The future has to be planned ahead of time! All of this refers back to my original post. A scholly is not a guarantee. It is a gift with strings attached. Taking away a scholly because an athlete cannot or will not contribute is not mistreating some poor helpless student. If they are a gifted athlete they will be offered a scholly by another school. If they are a problem child, then they never deserved a scholly in the first place and they are no worse off than when they were in high school and are free to pursue an education in any way that they choose. IMO.

  10. Paul May 19, 2009 at 6:56 am #

    Alabama accepted commitments from more players than they had space for. That means either kids at the school had to leave or kids who had already committed had to not make it.

    Sure, maybe CNS had a “reason” for everyone dismissed, but that doesn’t change the fact that because of the size of class he signed he NEEDED people to get dismissed.

    Coach Rodriguez, on the other hand, has a 5th year player who could contribute but just violated his parole and may be heading to jail. Dismissing him isn’t in the same ball park. In fact, it could be argued that Coach Rod would be wrong if he didn’t ask Grady to leave for violating probation.

    The biggest difference in the two situations is that at Alabama, the actions of the coaching staff made it necessary that a certain amount of attrition had to happen while at Michigan, the attrition is due to the actions of the players. Rodriguez has no motivation to boot players to free up space while CNS had to.

    And maybe there are perfectly justifiable reasons, but is it just a coincidence that just enough Tide players left, got booted to get the class to fit?

  11. BamaReturns07 May 19, 2009 at 7:29 am #

    Or, Paul, it could be, MAYBE just MAYBE, Saban is savvy enough to have a fairly accurate idea of the players who won’t make it to the next year when he oversigns. Ya know, because coaches tend to know more about their players on a daily basis than any fan possibly could (or media for that matter). I am sure Saban knew Johns and Hall were problem kids. Practice will tell you a great deal about a person’s attitude.

    Regardless, that is not the point of either article. Cook went on an ignorant tirade about Bama oversigning and hurting the student athlete, and Capstone was responding becaue RichRod is doing the same thing and here is Cook kissing his ass. Obviously he is a homer – hell, I am a homer – but to be a major UM blogger and showing your ass and clear lack of understanding of attrition rates or the general process of recruiting and signing players makes me think he isn’t as knowledgeable about all things college football as he wants to appear. Either that or he let his homer emotions take over in his post – which, actually, was quite evident. Excuse me but I would rather have a writer who has at least some form of integrity writing for my home team’s blog.

    In any case, Cook has been called out countless times over that article and has not – to my knowledge – had the fortitude to address these issues head on. I don’t blame him; if I posted something so completely and utterly lacking of facts and integrity, I’d stay away too.

    Good luck this year, Michigan. You will need it.

  12. capstonereport May 19, 2009 at 8:02 am #

    And maybe there are perfectly justifiable reasons, but is it just a coincidence that just enough Tide players left, got booted to get the class to fit?

    Actually, Alabama had more than enough leave. It awarded scholarships to a couple of walk on players.

    But that isn’t the point. The point isn’t over-signing. The point is screwing student-athletes.

    Read what Rich Rodriguez said. “Stay tuned. There’s a couple guys I’m going to sit with here. Just guys that maybe if they’re not doing all their responsibilities and doing what they need to do to be part of our football program may not be back. I hope that’s not too many.”

    Sounds like more than just one. Plus, the guy he just ran off the team.

    Sounds like some type of purge that is hurting these scholars!

  13. intheknow72 May 19, 2009 at 10:18 am #

    Plus, don’t miss the mean-spirited nature of Meyer calling his shot, announcing his intentions “Stay tuned. There’s a couple of guys I’m going to sit down with here.” Now when “those guys” depart, all the cards are on the table and they’re exposed. So mom and dad, thinking about sending your son to go play for the Big Blue, beware that if things don’t go as planned, your son may be hung out to dry in front of the media, fans, God and everybody by a multi-millionaire who isn’t thinking beyond his next soundbyte.

    One of the most sobering responsibilities of leadership is taking care of those who have been entrusted to you, whether they fit in your system or not. They’re still people. Even if you have to show them the door, you owe it to them, their families, their future and yourself to go the extra mile and make provisions for them. Announcing that “we have some mystery men who are trouble makers here” then letting the public connect the dots when those men get shown the door isn’t right…especially for student athletes.

    Therefore, I think Cappy’s assessment here is spot-on.

  14. intheknow72 May 19, 2009 at 10:18 am #

    NOT Meyer…sorry…have Meyer on the brain after reading Shane’s article. I meant Rod.

  15. BamaBrando May 19, 2009 at 10:49 am #

    You just punk’d Mr. Cook and his irrelevant blog. Way to go cap! I used to like Michigan, but after the ruckus he stirred up last year, I have changed my mind. He and the Michigan fans that support his views can all go to hell.

    And Tim, what is up with you? It is okay for Michigan to cut players, and when Saban does it, it is unethical? Please. Go back to your blog and kissing Rodriguez’s pompous ass. We are sure glad he didn’t come here. I would bet you guys would be willing to trade coaches, though you wouldn’t admit it here.

  16. Paul May 19, 2009 at 11:57 am #

    Brian’s argument is based on motives not on results. Saban needed space, so space was made. Sure, maybe he’s prescient, but maybe he maybe some kids didn’t get as much support as others.

    Rich Rodriguez is talking mostly about Grady, who got in big trouble for blowing a .28 while driving and, apparently violated his probation. Rodriguez has no external motivation to get rid of Grady. He’s a 5th year and will be gone by next class anyway.

    Other than Justin Boren, everyone that has left the team seems to have left the team on good terms.

    I guess I don’t get how oversigning and hoping kids flame out is the same as kids getting in legal trouble and booted from the team.

  17. chitownblue May 19, 2009 at 12:13 pm #

    Dude, you totally don’t get it:

    Kevin Grady is getting axed because he got a DUI, got a 2nd chance, then didn’t show up for counseling, public service, or court dates. Oh, and then he tested positive for drugs. That is nothing similar to cutting players to free up scholarships – particularly since he’s a 5ht year senior this year. Who would we use his scholarship on?

    Further, Michigan hasn’t even nudged the max scholarship count for the team or in any single class – a line Alabama repeatedly crosses.

    They’re called facts, bubba.

  18. Jake May 19, 2009 at 12:53 pm #

    Saw this article on twitter. CR doesn’t seem to understand Grady’s situation and therefore looks foolish.

    Michigan has no incentive to kick Grady off the team; the kid is still a beast in short yardage situations. Yet not fulfilling his probation requirements should eventually keep him from staying on the team. In that way, his future was undoubtedly in his hands, not RR’s.

    Doofus.

  19. capstonereport May 19, 2009 at 1:06 pm #

    So motives matter more? Why? And why is it that Rodriguez said MORE would be getting it in the ass in the coming days???

    FACTS! You are the one who is lacking them. All we know is Rodriguez is going to run more players off the team!

    He is screwing these scholars out of a Michigan degree!!!!!!!!!

  20. capstonereport May 19, 2009 at 1:08 pm #

    Once again, the scholarship limit isn’t the issue.

    The issue is when students who are promised four years of scholarship are screwed by a coach who wants harder working or better players or players with better attitudes! How dare he!

  21. motownblue May 19, 2009 at 1:14 pm #

    No CR, the issue is not screwing over athletes for harder working or better players. If you had an education past 3rd grade in any other state (or the ‘bama equivalent of a phd in english), you could figure this out.

  22. UM2K1 May 19, 2009 at 1:18 pm #

    Ok Nardouchenozzle, if you can’t see the difference between Saban over recruiting to a point where he has to remove players from the team and Rodriguez kicking an unrepentant covict (a little harsh?) off the team to go along with a couple of guys leaving to go to different offensive situations or closer to home or where the coaches encourage them to emulate Jaba-the-Hut, fine. I’ll chalk it up to reduced mental capacity due to inbreading. But, Brando says “You just punk’d Mr. Cook and his irrelevant blog”, which is complete fabrication. Mr. Cook’s blog gets over twice as many page views per day than this elementary, “irrelevant” excuse for a sports blog. Go back to fornicating with your sister/cousin/mother/coon dog, and leave the thinking to us smart-uns up north.

  23. skapanza May 20, 2009 at 9:24 am #

    If Rodriguez was interested in actively screwing recruits out of scholarships, wouldn’t he have said “The following players are being cut from the team. Here are their names, they are now cut.”?

    Instead, he alluded to the fact that Grady, who was wasted and driving in Wyoming, then skipped his mandatory meetings, is probably gone, and there are other players who need to get their act together if they want to remain eligible.

    Michigan gains nothing out of booting Grady, or losing anyone else. The Alabama coaching staff had significant impetus to see players off, and was in a situation where Jimmy John’s cocaine adventure was great news. In what world of moral ambiguity should something like that be positive for a team. Grady’s DUI sure isn’t welcome news. We’re lucky to have other Senior RBs, but Grady was excellent in short yardage or filling in as a fullback.

    Every Alabama blog wants to stick it to Mgoblog after last year, but you’re going to need a legitimate argument to do so.

  24. capstonereport May 20, 2009 at 9:41 am #

    Rodriguez was simply managing his football team. Sometimes attrition happens; sometimes people NEED to be kicked off the team. Last year, Cook didn’t know what the hell he was talking about and assumed people would get screwed.

    Kind of like I was illustrating.

    Let me see if I can illustrate the reasoning behind Cook’s posts last year.

    1. Screwing players is bad.
    2. Over-signing screws players.
    Therefore, over-signing is bad.

    The argument focuses largely on what happens to players. The over-signing is only bad IF a player gets screwed. Just like kicking players off a team is only bad if it is done in an arbitrary and capricious manner. And that isn’t likely the case because most coaches (including Rodriguez and Saban) are good managers of talent.

  25. ThWard May 20, 2009 at 9:43 am #

    This is stunningly stupid.

    Grady is going to get kicked off for violating his probation (and his second chance).

    NO ONE wants this to happen. It needs to happen because, well, Michigan has standards for its student-athletes.

    If you think the original post on Mgoblog criticizing Saban’s over-signing was based on the principle that kids should not be kicked off of a football team for any reason, whatsoever, then you’ve comically missed the point.

    Over-signing didn’t compel UM to kick (probably) Grady off the team. To the contrary, we all WISH he could stay (or, more appropriately, we wish he wasn’t a probation-breaking, second-chance ruiner). How is this hard to figure out?

    Capstone – you’re comments are dumber than your original post. Do you really not grasp the difference? Is this some sort of inside joke you’ve got going where you see how dumb of an argument you can make to piss people off? If so, huzzah. Coach Rod is not compelled to run players off at U of M because of his practice of knowingly over signing players. He’s compelled because U of M has standards (thou shall not violate probation after being given a second chance).

  26. SHOverine May 20, 2009 at 9:48 am #

    The only legitimate argument I can see for Saban over-signing is that he projected a high level of attrition. The point is that he ran the risk of cutting a player for specious reasons even if he was being smart about the issue. Rich Rod’s statement is totally different WRT Kevin Grady. We will see if there are any other players cut, but at this point, it’s just a statement. Doesn’t every coach sit down with a few troubled players every season? As far as I know, Michigan works very hard to keep Michigan Men, Michigan Men.

  27. ThWard May 20, 2009 at 9:50 am #

    Ugh.

    How is this debatable?

    Over-signing is bad because it distorts the coach’s goal with his players’ goals. That is, incentives are no longer aligned – the coach’s normal goal of making sure every kid stays with the program is no longer present when he oversigns – oversigning COMPELS this result.

    The mere fact that a coach kicks a player off a team does not mean that his interests were not aligned with said player – sometimes a player’s actions compel the result. With oversigning, the coach’s actions compel the result. Sure, perhaps Saban lucked out to have a bunch of miscreants that would screw up and get kicked out – or he knew some kids had brittle ligaments and would get hurt. But its undeniable that his interests are no longer aligned with his players’ when he oversigns.

    For the life of me, I can’t see how this is difficult to understand. To spin Cook’s argument into “players should never be kicked off a team” is unreal.

  28. tidenuts May 20, 2009 at 9:52 am #

    man stay in the sandbox where u belong kid. mgoblog whipped its a$$ with you today.

  29. blueyou May 20, 2009 at 10:12 am #

    i second that, tidenuts.

  30. MaximumSam May 20, 2009 at 10:15 am #

    This comparison is dumb. All programs, including Michigan and Alabama, go through attrition where guys move on for various reasons. Only some programs actively impose attrition on themselves. When Alabama signed more players than they had scholarships, they were forced to cut guys, whether they had a reason to or not. I’m no expert on Alabama football – maybe Saban had perfectly good reasons for doing this. But it looks bad. You can argue that you don’t think it’s a big deal, or Saban was right, but don’t argue that Michigan and Alabama are doing the same thing, because that’s not anywhere near factually true.

  31. BostonTide May 20, 2009 at 10:47 am #

    I have to disagree with you guys on this one- this seems like apples and oranges to me. CNS WAS, to be honest, in a position where he was hoping for a small amount of attrition, so it was in his best interest for a handful of players to slide off the roster. Rodriguez, though, probably doesn’t want this attrition- they’re (most likely) losing a decent player for legal reasons. He’s not booting guys to trim the roster. In fact, nobody has even need booted yet- for now, this is just talk.

    Roll Tide

  32. Ven May 20, 2009 at 10:49 am #

    This article has all the unwarranted bombast of a shitty Jay-Mariotti-on-his-high-horse article, with petty vindictiveness and ignorance to reality tossed in. All so the author can try and get one over on Michigan because Brian Cook rightfully called Nick Saban out.

    MaxSam is right. At least when you were arguing that Saban’s recruiting strategies were fair and legitimate, you were just being morally reprehensible. But now that you’ve left the realm of opinion for attempts at fact, you’re just lying.

  33. Bosun May 20, 2009 at 11:01 am #

    Whoever writes this blog is maroon. As in: not smart.

  34. Seattle03 May 20, 2009 at 11:19 am #

    This is the definition of a flawed argument, and someone who doesn’t have the maturity or credibility to admit they were wrong. Best of luck getting your blog hits up, kiddos.

    You remember that Bill Murray line to Rick Moranis in Ghostbusters 2 – “Short, but pointless”? That’s this blog.

  35. MG May 20, 2009 at 11:49 am #

    The writer of this blog really has no clue. Rodriguez is talking responsibilities that have nothing to do with football performance. Grady has had some serious off the field issues that have been well documented. Saban will cut kids because they drop one to many passes in practice to get under the scholarship limits. It’s a dirty practice that the NCAA should look at if this pattern keeps up. Lastly, save yourself some time and do not try and argue against Brian, he will destroy with the words.

  36. UMAA May 20, 2009 at 12:06 pm #

    I think everyone is missing the point (UofM fans included).

    The intent of this post was inflammatory. CR saw a RichRod quote, twisted its meaning, and tried to even the score with MGoBlog because of what Brian posted last year. Period. CR knows the situations are completely different. It’s a feeble attempt at payback.

  37. Tim Waymen May 20, 2009 at 12:14 pm #

    What happened? Did this important piece get rejected from The Bleacher Report?? Again??

    Or maybe this is just one big misunderstanding. After all, many SEC fans aren’t used to the concept of cutting players for failing grades and/or run-ins with the law.

  38. Harvey Birdman May 20, 2009 at 12:32 pm #

    My take on this:

    Brian got upset with Saban because he oversigned, and thus had to hope for attrition or run players off the team. Saban probably had a handful of players he either wanted to run off or did indeed run off before all was said and done. The problem was, Brian had no clue about any of that important “behind the scenes” stuff.

    NOW, it appears that Rich Rod is kicking players off the team, despite the fact that no one knows how many or (with the exception of Grady) for what reasons. In other words, why is running kids off the team okay when Rich Rod does it, but not okay when Saban does it?

    Just because Saban had the foresight to go ahead and have some kids ready to replace the outgoing troublemakers, does that make him evil, as Brian would have us think?

  39. tempebamafan May 20, 2009 at 12:49 pm #

    thanks for pointing out yet another glaring example of the blatant hypocrisy exercised by brian cook and his legion of douche-bag followers.

    because having enough players ready to fill the void left by players leaving on medical scholarship and for a few who transferred to other schools, is WAYYYY worse than simply kicking kids off the team outright, without cause, as richrod is doing… stay classy michigan.

  40. tempebamafan May 20, 2009 at 12:52 pm #

    @38. No, we are, we’re also just used to being called ignorant a-holes by brian cook and his loser followers like you, for it. when you guys do it without cause, presumably to make room in next years class, it makes you hypocritical jackasses.

  41. tempebamafan May 20, 2009 at 1:00 pm #

    @31 you’re right they’re not even close. what Saban engaged in happens all the time and is to be expected at any successful NCAA D-1 program (which must be why michigan doesn’t practice it). What richrod is doing is simply taking away these kids’ “guaranteed 4 year scholarship” because he doesn’t think they fit his system. At least if Saban dismissed players it was due to academic, legal, or team policy issues.

    richrod is doing it simply to make room for his style of guys in the next years class. one practice is understandable, the other is reprehensible and given brian cook’s previous staunch support of the rights of “scholar athletes”, his silence in this matter speaks volumes.

    simply put he is a giant fucking hypocrite douchebag piece of shit.

  42. 83tilinfinity May 20, 2009 at 1:14 pm #

    Laughable. If I were to even attempt to parody a stereotypical Alabama fan right now, it would fall so far short of the three posts preceding this one.

  43. Ray Go Blue May 20, 2009 at 1:18 pm #

    @41

    Wow, read both articles before you make an ass out of yourself. Grady is presumably being kicked off because of legal problems. He’s a 5th year senior, so it wont affect next year’s class. Saban on the other hand is presumably kicking kids off to make room for next year’s class.

  44. Bevisc May 20, 2009 at 1:18 pm #

    HarveyBirdman,

    Who are these players that RichRod is kicking off the team, besides Grady, who –we can all agree, I hope–deserves to be booted or punished? The only player actually mentioned in Rodriguez’s quote was Kurt Wermers, who voluntarily left to focus on his studies. Now in the real world, a rational person might make a distinction between a player leaving football of his own volition to dedicate himself to academics (which will have a greater impact on the future of this particular student than college football will) and a football player who is kicked off the team against his will because he’s not fast enough. But that’s just quibbling. Logic is a hindrance when it comes to football talk.

    So please let us know who these players are and why they are leaving, because apparently you have a lot more information about the football program than the media, Michigan insiders and fans.

  45. Bevisc May 20, 2009 at 1:19 pm #

    TempeBamaFan,

    Same question, who are these players? Names please and reasons why they are leaving.

  46. ThWard May 20, 2009 at 1:25 pm #

    Hard to tell which is dumber – the original article, or the posts trying to justify it.

    “is WAYYYY worse than simply kicking kids off the team outright, without cause, as richrod is doing… stay classy michigan.”

    If violating the probation you received for driving while heavily intoxicated is “without cause” in Alabama’s fans’ eyes, safe to say we won’t see eye to eye on anything, huh? Because up north, having standards and applying said standards even to the detriment of your team (and losing Grady is most definitely bad for UM) is, in fact, being “classy.” (side note: wannabe smug comments like this happen when imbeciles watch too many Will Ferrell movies).

    “when you guys do it without cause, presumably to make room in next years class, it makes you hypocritical jackasses.”

    There’s that awesome “without cause” argument. And you doubled down with a “presumbaly to make room in next years class”…. which is nice, considering Grady’s a 5th year senior.

    Next…

  47. Harvey Birdman May 20, 2009 at 1:26 pm #

    83tilinfinity -

    Thank you for your well worded response. I would attempt a parody of michigan fans, but I am smart enough to realize it would be unfair to them to use you as any kind of example. Please stop drooling on the doorstep.

    -Harvey

  48. Harvey Birdman May 20, 2009 at 1:30 pm #

    Also – these recent posts have illustrated my original problem with Brian’s post to begin with. No, I don’t know how many kids Rich Rod is kicking off and I don’t know for what reason.

    MY IT’S EASY TO MAKE UP THINGS.

    My point is this – Brian had no idea whether or not Saban had a “sit down” with every kid that left the team and discussed their future before deciding to replace them with a recruit. If he did have a “sit down” with every kid, then what he did was not sketchy.

    CALLING IT SKETCHY BEFORE YOU HAVE ALL OF THE FACTS IS FUN, NO?

  49. Harvey Birdman May 20, 2009 at 1:31 pm #

    http://www.bamasportsreport.com/2008/08/04/the-scholarship-numbers-game-the-final-analysis/

    Please take a look at this before posting anymore, please.

  50. OMNIPRESENT May 20, 2009 at 1:36 pm #

    BamaReturns07 Says:
    May 19th, 2009 at 7:29 am
    Or, Paul, it could be, MAYBE just MAYBE, Saban is savvy enough to have a fairly accurate idea of the players who won’t make it to the next year when he oversigns.

    REALLY!?!?!?!?!?!?
    Ya think thats true?
    If you do, I wanna sign you up for my
    payday a week deal. I only need 4 of you guys to sign up and give up one payday a month for a chance to win one a week .
    DIdnt make since did it?

  51. OMNIPRESENT May 20, 2009 at 1:38 pm #

    WHY OVERSIGN? I ll tell ya, its so if YOUR WRONG about any ONE player it doesnt matter… Ya get it???
    Sure you do!

  52. ThWard May 20, 2009 at 1:41 pm #

    Harvey Birdman –

    You place a ton of weight on why the Saban players were RS’d, booted, etc. You therefore argue that IF the reasons were pure, then there’s nothing wrong with signing.

    Fine.

    Would not not agree that the practice of oversigning COMPELS the result, though? Even for innocent reasons? Would you also agree that the practice of oversigning NECESSARILY, even if for a short period of time, creates an incentive for a coach to find a way to lose players (it has to, right? I mean, if the team doesn’t shed players Saban’s in trouble, right?).

    So you are apparently against the PRESUMPTION that oversigning causes a coach to push a kid out the door, based on the fact that the same thing could happen for totally innocent reasons, right?

    But you do see how oversigning CAN cause a coach to push a kid out the door… and you do see that oversigning requires a coach to either luck into some medical redshirts/drop outs/armed robberies OR to do something sketchy… and you’re just more comfortable than others, apparently, that a coach that practices massive oversigning will always fall into the former category… or you’re willing to give Coach Saban the benefit of the doubt, though you admit that you don’t know exactly what happens behind closed doors.

    But certainly, CERTAINLY you can understand why (given the unaligned incentives that oversigning creates) why others may fairly NOT give Saban that benefit of the doubt, right?

  53. Bevisc May 20, 2009 at 1:43 pm #

    So you admit then that you have no basis for making an informed comment on the Michigan program, one way or another. Okay, at least we’re getting somewhere.

    So why not limit the discussion specifically to the heart of the matter, which is whether MGoBlog’s indictments against Saban have merit?

    And not whether Michigan, which MGoBlog just happens to support, is kicking football players off the team for football-related reasons. Uh, because it is not the case. It is not even close.

  54. ThWard May 20, 2009 at 1:43 pm #

    Obviously, should be “there’s nothing wrong with oversigning” and “Would you not agree that…”

  55. Harvey Birdman May 20, 2009 at 1:53 pm #

    ThWard -

    Let me first say that I appreciate the tone you bring to the discussion.

    I agree that oversigning can create some pretty awkward (to say the least) situations between a player and coach. Especially a player that isn’t seeing the field regularly. The next thing the player knows, some hotshot DB recruit is coming in and the coach calls you in to tell you good luck and godspeed.

    My argument is about appearances. Yeah, it might be easy to assume that Saban is signing these recruits left and right only to have some assistant strength coach tell the kid being replaced to hit the road. But, all indications are that these kids are leaving football altogether because of medical reasons, or something closely related. Most if not all of those were “nagging” type injuries that really made it difficult for the kid to contribute. That kid is still going to get a four year degree and a scholarship to boot. Sketchy? I guess we’ll have to disagree about that, but I’ll tell you that Saban waited a good while before even putting Tyrone “The leg injury from hell” Prothro on the medical scholarship, so it’s not something he jumps at doing.

    Still, my point remains the same. Brian was assuming a LOT of things (as did some other bloggers) to say that the practice of oversigning was a “sketchy” practice.

    I think the tenor of Cap’s post above was that we should feel free to cast the same assumptions Rich Rod’s way now that he is kicking players out.

    Agree or disagree, that is how I see it.

  56. Ven May 20, 2009 at 3:22 pm #

    But you shouldn’t. Because the player in question, who has not even been let go, despite all the allegations, is not being kicked to make room for an uber-frosh. He may be booted because he had a .231 BAC in Wyoming and hasn’t shown up for his probation hearings.

    Capstone is arguing that giving someone the boot because they are unable to live within the rules of the team (and society) is somehow comparable to over-recruiting. No.

  57. Harvey Birdman May 20, 2009 at 3:25 pm #

    Ven

    I would have no problem agreeing with you excpet that Rod’s quote indicated (in no uncertain terms) that other players could most definitely get the boot. Not just you DUI kid.

  58. ThWard May 20, 2009 at 4:14 pm #

    Harvey Birdman –

    I understand your point. But again – Brian Cook’s argument was never that “under no circumstances, can a coach kick a player off of the team.” Or hell, let’s tone down the word “kick” and use “encourage to leave.” The example the original post cites is a kid who has violated probation (!!!). I refuse to believe that the author of the OP really believes that Cook suggests that under no circumstances can a kid who violates probation (!!!) be kicked off the team.

    As to the quote that others might be in trouble – I fail to see what’s unique about it. I’m being honest, if one was so inclined, couldn’t you find an example of EVERY DI coach talking like that? Many coaches try to light a fire under their players asses if they’re failing in the grades department.

    Again – in my view, it simply comes down to incentives. Coach Rod benefits in no way in losing Grady, or any other kid. He has no incentive for them to leave, and is actually hurt if they do. But if a kid can’t cut the academics at UM OR violates probation (and thus pisses on his second chance), what can you do but apply your standards, right?

    Again, perhaps every kid that is med-shirted or asked to leave a program the same year that program oversigns X number of players is a completely innocent case (Harvey, you’ve obviously pointed out a few examples). But I don’t see how we can’t agree that the practice of unaligning a coach’s and players’ incentives for all kids to stay is probably a bad practice.

  59. Pat May 20, 2009 at 4:41 pm #

    Big difference between A) purposefully oversigning and putting yourself in a position where players must be booted, period, regardless of whether that number of players actually committed infractions that warranted dismissal from the team, and B) removing players who are not meeting their requirements.

    You have a very poor argument here.

  60. capstonereport May 20, 2009 at 4:45 pm #

    But I don’t see how we can’t agree that the practice of unaligning a coach’s and players’ incentives for all kids to stay is probably a bad practice.

    APR means a coach can’t kick kids off the team without consequences. Retention is part of the APR calculation.

  61. Harvey Birdman May 20, 2009 at 9:18 pm #

    Pat -

    No players were “booted” from the team to make room for anyone. Check the link I posted somewhere above for confirmation of that (except of course, for our FELONS, but I digress).

    ThWard –

    I can see where you’re coming from on the incentives angle. I would disagree that coaches have an incentive to keep every player on the team that he can from year to year. Many times, a coach has a bigger incentive to keep team cohesion by ridding the team of some of its “dead weight” (either in terms of off-field issues, academics, or troublemaking amongst teammates). A good example of this is with former LB Prince Hall. He could not keep his head on straight for violating team rules, and has missed the last two spring practices due to suspensions. Saban was given no incentive to keep this kid around, but rather had an incentive to boot him to help keep the team playing as a unit. The same thinking really applies to these kids who, en masse, were given medical schollys. This particular group of players had injuries that kept them from helping the team on the field. No doubt, these were all nagging injuries that any coach (much less Saban) would have noticed before the end of the year. It is not at all unlikely that Saban kept a list of players whom, in his studied opinion, had little chance of ever overcoming these injuries and producing for the team. To compensate for this, Saban no doubt knew that he would need to bring in a few more recruits to help fill those spaces. Of course, it is inevitable that some of those recruits will fail to qualify for one reason or another, which further reduces the number of scholarships needed. Other recruits can enroll early and back date, which also helps numbers. Ultimately, Saban had an incentive to oversign to make sure he had enough talent to help this team win.

    I find it hard to believe that Coach Saban, the work horse that he is, who is prepared for every situation when it comes to game-planning, would rely on luck to make sure he could make scholarship numbers. I find it much easier to believe that Saban knew which players would not be able to play because of nagging injuries, and planned accordingly.

    Again, this is just my view. I know it’s not for everyone.

  62. E.G White May 22, 2009 at 10:25 am #

    Yeah, you know this is the extreme of beating a dead horse! In 3 topics this week there have been about 125 posts. Most of them from Michigan posters repeatimg the same shit over and over again, and the majority of those including very offensive language, inuendos and derogatory remarks. On all three topics I have posted long and for the most part polite explanations of the Bama oversigning practice. But it is going in one ear and out the other! Now I’m fed up with this bullshit! No more mr. nice guy! You fucking midwestern pig farmers need to get your asses back home! You think we’re ignorant? You yahoos are the original rednecked stump jumpers that left the civilized New England States to fend for scraps in the forests! You far surpass any ignorant clod hopper from Alabama, and that includes East Alabama too! What we do here at the University of Alabama is none of your fucking business as long as it is within the NZAA guidelines. Fuckheads, I don’t think you see the NZAA sniffing our asses over over-signing! Mind your own fucking business! Yeah I know that’s impossible for you Yankee and West Coast Dudley Do Right Bastards. You motherfuckers think you have to police the whole fucking world with your fucking special interest group bullshit. Doesn’t matter how wrong you might be, or how many more people it may harm on the opposite side relative to number harmed on the original side. What a bunch of sad, ignorant Bastards you are. The special interest groups minding everybody elses business but their own are turning this country into a fucking police state. I don’t need your fucking help, and neither does the U of A. So drag your sorry asses back up there to that universe sized shithole you’ve made and leave us the fuck alone, tards!!! Sorry Cappy. Just had to do it! RAMMER JAMMER YELLOW HAMMER! ROLL TIDE ROLL!

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. Capstone Report » Michigan fans cannot think logically - May 19, 2009

    [...] Tim wrote in the comments section: “Uh, Michigan is well under scholarship limits for 2009. These situations are not even related, much less the same. What in the f*** are you talking about?” [...]

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